Terminator 2

hurleyreyes · Kitten Joined: 17 Jul 2008 Posts: 2

I would argue this is Dude with a Problem? Any other thoughts?

scroll2b · Cat Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 18 Location: NJ

Dyson is the guide who dies in the labyrinth at the end of act two.

mika · Cat Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Posts: 10

Golden Fleece : to Destroy Skynet !

John Connor must go , his family is destroy ( as luke skywalker)
Arnold help him with his strengh (han solo with his "super falcon")
then he wants to save his mother (princess leia)
After that, they decide to detroy skynet ( the dearth star)
Dyson help them (obi-wan and R2d2)
T-1000 look after them (Darth Vader)
is skynet destroy ?!?!
to be continued ....

Lemoine · Tiger Joined: 13 Mar 2009 Posts: 142 Location: So. Cal

Yeah, Mika, but to piggy-back on something you mentioned in the (I believe) Star Trek post, John Connor didn't give two sheets about Skynet until T-1000 began hunting him down. It was a life-or-death situation that left him with very little choice.

Little dude, big problem.

mika · Cat Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Posts: 10

"little dude , big problem" at the beginning.
He didn't choose to go, that's right, but he choose to deliver his mother when T-800 tell him it's not a good idea. This is not a DWAP strategy.. if the problem is "stay alive" why to deliver Sarah ? the little dude become a leader very soon.

When T-800 save john in the Galeria, everything is different , he understand that this machine is an ally and a "shield", so then, they are able to deliver Sarah, the problem will become "how to detroy skynet ?"

The story begin as "Terminator 1" (little woman, big problem) but this is not the same story , the characters motivations are higher level than just "I want to stay alive but Terminator is much more powerful than me"...

John is not so "little", he is good in strategy, diplomacy (Dyson) and he know his destiny (his life goal is to save humanity). John helped by T-800 is able to succeed.
Sarah is "armless" and don't understand his destiny in "Terminator 1", even if Kyle is a good soldier, this group is not "strong".

Sarah Connor as Princess leia as Henry Jones (indiana and the last crusade), are the same character , a person who know something very important to save the world. The hero must deliver this person to achieve the big goal.

John don't want to detroy skynet first ... as Indiana don't want to find the graal first (he wants to deliver his father) as Luke don't want to detroy the Death Star first (deliver the princess).

Lemoine · Tiger Joined: 13 Mar 2009 Posts: 142 Location: So. Cal

It still ultimately comes down to survival. If John Connor didn't take out Skynet, he would continue to be hunted down (oh wait...he still was in the following two sequels...whatever, that's not the point).

Also, Sarah wanted to run with John to Mexico until she had that dream, half-way through the movie. In a GF, the decision to pursue that particular something is the "break into act two", which comes AFTER that thing is revealed before or during the catalyst. In Terminator 2 (I think) the "break into two" occurs when John decides to trust and go along with Arnold, why? Because it is the best chance he has at staying alive.

mika · Cat Joined: 28 Apr 2009 Posts: 10

How do explain Dyson Character ? Could Dyson help John not to be killed ?
Destroy skynet is the Golden Fleece, the DWAP logic would be "we must destroy T1000" that's not their goal .

auntieant · Tiger Joined: 11 Oct 2008 Posts: 189

The first three Terminator movies go this way (I've not seen Salvation yet). They mess with your head after a while.

The first has to be DWAP, with elements of Buddy Love.

The second starts as DWAP, but is ultimately GF. They had a problem, but the problem is more of a catalyst that helps them decide to make the journey.

The third starts DWAP again, but becomes more BL by the end.

All in all the Terminator movies are a real mess if you analyse them too deeply.

Skynet is fighting the humans and the humans are winning thanks to the tactical genius of their leader John Connor. So they send a Terminator back in time to kill Connor's mother before his birth. As a concequence, the rebels send back Reese, who in turn FATHERS Connor - if Skynet never sent Arnie back in time, Connor doesn't exist.

As if to further mess with your brain, in T2 it seems that the chip recovered from the remains of the original Arnie-bot is what helped launch Skynet's technical boost and develop the technology that makes it self aware! So, not just fathering Connor, but giving birth... to itself?!?

And when Arnie first failed, how come they didn't just send another one back to just seconds fter Arnie was crushed? Reese is dead and Sarah Connor is knackered. In fact, why not send the T1000 back to that day? Geez, a Playstation 2 could've worked that one out.

Anyway, back to the question at hand - they all start out DWAP, but become something else, the DWAP element creating the catalyst and serving as debate. I think.

Lemoine · Tiger Joined: 13 Mar 2009 Posts: 142 Location: So. Cal

Alright Mika, check this out. There is a big PROBLEM awkwardly running around the streets of L.A. called the T-1000 and he's set on destroying John Connor. John Connor wants to survive, so he joins Arnold because he wants to survive and Arnold wants him to survive. John Connor also wants his mother to survive so he makes Arnold break her out of the looney bin so she can do so. And the three of them head to Mexico to run from their PROBLEM so Johnny Boy can survive long enough to fight against the future machines and help humans survive.

BUT...

John's mother has a dream, seeing clearly the mushrooming PROBLEM the world will have unless they put a stop to it. Mom is willing to kill Dyson to stop all PROBLEMS (very primal - love that) but to really solve them, they have to destroy the old Arnold parts and the T-1000 who continues to be a really big PROBLEM. Lastly, Arnold also sees that he must destroy himself so there is no chance of the world having another PROBLEM (a lot of good that did).

So auntieant, the reason John and his mom do everything they do is so they can survive, which is what all true DWAPs are about. GF is more about venturing out in search of something cool, not about keeping your life and the lives of your loved ones.

And yes, clearly movies like Star Trek don't purely adhere to one of Mr. Cats' genres and most are totally flawed for doing so (which is one of my issues with Fight Club, which had the potential to be my favorite movie of all time, BUT RUINED IT. And I'm sure they're very upset about that), but the question we're seeking the answer to - our own personal Golden Fleece - is what kind of movie, ultimately, are we watching? Because it will always be more of one genre than any other one.

And for reasons I have stated above, ultimately, I think Terminator 2 is a DWAP.

William · Tiger Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 169

You just nailed it Lemoine.

I was thinking over and over why isn't anyone pitching this question...and you did it before i got a chance...

What is the DIFFERENCE between Dude with a Problem and Golden Fleece?

Use Terminator 2 as a film reference to explain...

THIS is what is being debated here implicitly...

I see a lot of debate about T2 being DWAP because...a, b, c, therefore d, etc

But what's being said here in disguise is an explanation of the difference between these two genres.

"GF is more about venturing out in search of something cool, not about keeping your life and the lives of your loved ones."

Is that the case? I dont' know myself...but it really is what's being debated here, not T2...

I think GF can be about going out in search of something cool...there will be lots of conflict along the way and there may even be a lot on the line to achieve this something cool...I think dwap the focus is more on piling more and more problems on the poor innocent dude and a lot less focus on the team and the journey...

Die Hard doens't have much of a journey...Star Wars does. T2 from my reading seems to focus more on making John Connor's and Sarah's lives as problematic as possible...not much emphasis on the journey or the team.

Yah Luke has his share of problems, but I think John's are a lot bigger...Luke CAN just run away and hide ... John can't..he's being hunted by a sleepless Robot...and the problems keep piling on him. Luke seems to get less challenges as things go on..other than Obi wan dying..he gets to teh death star, saves the princess, gets the design plans to the rebels...and even is the one to deal the death blow to the death star...seriously..all that travelling ended up well. The GF in Star was was saving the princess..."we need your help obi wan...". That's a Golden Fleece for sure...

What about T2? I think John was more or less innoccent and the problems started happening...there was a lot less choice to go on the road there. Yes, we could argue that Sarah is princess Leia...a bit taller, but Leia still...

I think the diff is about emphasis...most films have a dude and a problem, but the emphasis is slanted...most monster in the house films are dwap too, but the dude messed up...SIN and the MONSTER is the emphasis...

I felt like Star was the emphasis was more about becomming a Jedi and saving Leia and learning about the Force...than about dealing with immediate problems. John just seemed to be dealing with one challenge after another...none of which was invited or even of interest to him.

DWAP films come across more reactionary than the GF tends to. I think that's key as well. They are similar, but the emphasis is more on the problems and the reactions than on the interesting trip and what's learned along the way.
This poses a bigger question though...why is Star Wars a GF and T2 isn't? Or why is Star Wars NOT DWAP and T2 is a DWAP?

What is the essential difference between dwap and gf guys?

Comments?

Dirk Riptide · Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:11 am Post subject:

Terminator was a classic DWAP movie. Not genre-defining like Die Hard, but still a classic DWAP. Sarah Connor is the perfect "innocent hero" being thrust into a world of hurt by the "sudden event", which is the Terminator attempting to kill her - a real "life and death" battle ensues. Yes. DWAP.

T2 is the same isn't it? Just substitute "John" for "Sarah" and you're good to go. However...I can see why people would associate some of the story elements with GF. There is a road. There is a team. There is no prize as such though. They have an objective, but not a prize. The objective is to save themselves and all of human kind. It's an epic DWAP.

That's the essential difference between DWAP and GF. In a DWAP and a GF there can be a life and death battle, but there's a search for something in a GF - whatever that something is.

Telechus · Kitten Joined: 13 Jul 2009 Posts: 2

I've got to go with DWAP.

The central difference for me between a GF and DWAP is about the protagonist.
In DWAP, it is someone ordinary, a victim of circumstance. They have no reason to believe there is anything special about them and really don't have a need to be. On some level, they are happy with and want to remain who they are. For John and Sarah, they would be very happy if SkyNet went and bothered someone else. In GFs, the hero knows he's better than the life he's in. He's not happy about something and it drives him forward. There's something that show what he's got. That's why the journey/road is important in a GF, it's a metaphor for the protagonist striving to get away from where he is. Whereas the Problem for the dude needs to go away. To illustrate the difference, the dude encounters a monster as it invades his life, as soon as he can drive the monster out of his life, the conflict is largely over. For the hero, there's a monster out there somewhere and he's the one who can slay it.

Bkos · Cat Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 21 Location: Atlanta

The first Terminator HAS to be MITH!

The sin is either the premarital sex that Sarah has/had in the future/past OR it's the sin of skynet and our over-reliance on technology.

The half-man is Reese, a classic half-man who has experienced the horrors of the terminators and who dies as all half-men do.

Piehawker · Puma Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Brighton, UK

>>>>The sin is either the premarital sex that Sarah has/had in the future/past OR it's the sin of skynet and our over-reliance on technology.

Either that or the dangers of sleeping with an unwashed man who's been sprinting around 'going commando' in a pair of hobo's trousers (or pants as you Americans call them) for several days.

TriggerStreeter · Cub Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 9

In T1, Sarah Conner is the protag.
In T2, the Terminator is the protag.
In T3, John Conner is the protag.

T1 is a Dude with a Problem. Sarah is the innocent, the appearance of the Terminator is the unexpected event and her life, as well as that of her unborn son, is what's a stake.

T2 is a Golden Fleece. The road is to get John Conner somewhere that the T1000 won't find him. The team/buddy is Sarah Conner. The prize is John's safety (and the destruction of the T1000).

T3 is a Rites of Passage. The life problem is John's isolation and his difficulty dealing with the destiny he refuses to accept. The wrong way is his running away. The acceptance comes at the end when he realizes that he can't avoid the future.

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