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| What do you think? |
| Too Desperate? |
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75% |
[ 3 ] |
| Unoriginal? |
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25% |
[ 1 ] |
| My friends own a secret copy of 'Save The Cat'? |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 4 |
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SaveTheFish
Cub
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: England, North West.
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: The Whiff of unoriginality: a subconscious cut and paste? |
 #39466 |
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Originality is something we all want; the writer and the audience both. However, sometimes I wonder if there are strong similarities in a train of thought that go beyond unoriginality, something that is embedded into the human psyche. Much like Snyder's states so, in his books.
Recently, Avatar has become synonymous with Pocahontas; Stephen King has admited he would have thought differently about writing Under the Dome had he of first seen The Simpsons movie; the 'Its all in the protagonist's head plot twist' is quickly becoming the new 'Once upon a time' and a young teenage boy told me the videogame 'Assassins Creed II' was, to quote: ''a total Batman rip off"
For me, I could see the strong similarities between Avatar, Phocahontas and Ferngully. However, having liked the movie and holding a strong love for the screenwriting process, I cannot conjure up a better way to deliver that premise without falling into the same trap.
Sure, Jake could have had a male mentor - a brother figure of a sort -but it wouldn't of resinated with the story premise as much as a love interest. Id go as far as to say, it wouldn't have been as successful. After all, the film is about falling in love, for the most part
Now, before I become subjected to claims that I may be trying too hard -or worse, not hard enough- let me first share with you the fustrating process I had working on one particular story.
I have a story of a man stuck in limbo ( I can't share too much) I don't want him to 'seem' dead as I want the audience to fully relate. I decide to reveal the fact he is dead much later on, so I write a first draft and pass it on to a friend.
'The plot twist is too much like the Sixth Sense'
Though that film never crossed my mind, I decide he is kind of right. Although it bares little resemblance in any other way, I feel THAT plot twist and its connection to THAT movie is too strong within our culture to ignore, and make this plot twist happen much earlier on. Make it less about that, and more about what happens after: how he deals with it.
Somehow, the more I played with it - the more it became 'Jacobs ladder'
So I relaxed, removed some of the 'dark' tone- a demon or two. It naturally progresses. To add conflict, it develop's into a love story. A story about two lovers on either side of this wall. I show it to my friend...
'What dreams may come'
Bugger! Then I decide he's not even dead, and both limbo and the demons are but metaphorical conflicts.
This time I decide to show this to a different friend...
'This is good, it reminds me alot of the Machinist. Have you seen The Machinist, Its brilliant'
He was right; The confusing Clues; characters wondering who he was talking to/about. There was even a car crash.
Sure, maybe I am being to hard on myself. Resemblances are exactly that: Resemblances. A car crash is a popular way to go; people WOULD be indenial about being dead and when they are not, it would be only natural to care about the one's you leave behind. For that to be an interesting story, the one's you left behind would have to be experiencing some kind of conflict...perhaps your own death?
If yes, then you have a 'What dreams may come'
If no, then you might end up with something similar to 'Ghost'
See, It is not so much the similarities in the Premise that bothers me. Its that my, then chosen, plot devices become very close to other material that shares the same theme's or premise.
What do you think?
Are people too desperate for originality; are my plot path's based on nothing but popular story meme's and subconscious cut and paste, or do I need better proof-reading friends?
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quade
Liger
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1767
Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject: |
#39467 |
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Your plot twist is the least important thing in your story.
Read that again.
Ultimately what people want is your emotional story. They don't care that the big boat sinks. Oh, when they saw the commercial and the title, Titanic, they thought they did, but that's just the box their chocolate comes in.
What they desperately want is to feel something by proxy. They want to feel what Rose and Jack felt; even if it's a love lost. They want the emotion of the story, not simply the plot.
The classic example of this is;
The Queen died, then the King died.
That's simply a chronology of events. Who cares? People die every day.
The Queen died and then the King died of a broken heart.
Well, there ya go.
NOBODY CARES IF YOUR PLOT IS A RIP OFF AS LONG AS YOU MAKE THEM FEEL SOMETHING.
Do you think anybody cares The Lion King is Hamlet? No.
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SaveTheFish
Cub
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location: England, North West.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
#39469 |
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Haha, great. I've seen you around these forums and always like your advice so when I scrolled down the page and saw that black cat I got a little excited.
I know what your saying and it is something I constantly need to remind myself. What is it that my character WANTS?. Whilst concepts can be limited, characters and emotional journey's can be as diverse as musical composition's. Claiming we could somehow run out of original stories is like saying we could run out of music.
You do make me seem a little idiotic there, however.
My problem is that I feel I run into a similar emotional story when working on something that shares a similar premise.
Something I touched upon with my reference to 'What dreams may come'. How I needed a tangible, real life stake. Death is final, it has little place to go. Thats the ultimate fear at the end of the fear arc, death. So, Someone in the real world needs to be at risk. Naturally, I feel, this leads me to some strong similarities in the emotional story in 'What dreams may come' not just its premise and its themes.
I am looking for answers though - not excuses - and it does make me think, nobody ever says...
'Oh jesus, not ANOTHER story about a man grieving over the death of a loved one'
Yet this is part of so many emotional stories.
The Sixth Sense has both of the main characters grieving over loved ones yet M. Night is not accused of being unoriginal in his emotional devices.
However, I do wonder if or why emotional devices such as grieving over a loved one may be more prevalent in Mystery/Thriller films (Minority Report, The Mothman Prophecies, Memento but to name a few) than others.
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quade
Liger
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1767
Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
#39473 |
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| SaveTheFish wrote: | | You do make me seem a little idiotic there, however. |
I apologize for that. It was not my intention. My intention was to save you several years of going down the wrong path of thinking plot driven stories are the way to go. When you focus on plot twists and care too much whether this story is too similar to that story, you're doomed.
It may have been easier sitting outside the cave around the camp fire. Back then you probably could tell an "original" story of how Og dared to cross the forbidden ridge to hunt and almost got killed by the wooly mammoth, but threw his spear at just the right moment, saved the day, and thus provided us all with mammoth meat for the winter.
Yea original story.
But ultimately that little tale is retold billions of times over hundreds of thousands of years and you end up with Star Wars.
| Quote: | | However, I do wonder if or why emotional devices such as grieving over a loved one may be more prevalent in Mystery/Thriller films (Minority Report, The Mothman Prophecies, Memento but to name a few) than others. |
Because it is a primal emotional feeling. Og felt the same emotion thousands of years ago. Every person on the planet has felt it. Well, that's why it works. It's harder to fit that into a comedy about a drunken weekend in Las Vegas is why it ends up in dramas, mysteries, and thrillers.
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Rachel T.
Ocelot
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 1912
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
#39528 |
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I don't know why you're upset about reusing emotional stories, either. Love is the most common plot around - and the romance novel is the single most profitable genre in books, period.
If your twist has been done, and your emotional story has been done, get picky with the nuances - he's a janitor, she's a __, he's trying to investigate a kidnapping (from the other side?!), the b story is __, whatever it is. I like that he's investigating a kidnapping, personally.
Have fun with it, and don't worry so much about being original! 
_________________
Don't be afraid to admit that inside you is a seething, fiery core of ambition and lust for success that would appall Napoleon.
-Russell Galen
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William
Liger
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 1055
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
#39535 |
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If you look at Blake's Genre's you will understand there are only ten different stories... where only the details change.
Originality in the 21st century is a myth.
Everything's been said already.
Say it with emotion and change the details around. That's all you need to do.
And yes Pocahontas and Avatar are both Military Institution.
They are both the same story. But then again so is Dances with Wolves and The Last Samurai.
All FOUR are the same story.
You don't need to be original. You just have to be good. Heck they are bringing the SAME MOVIE out again in 3D and people go to the theatre to see it.
Why is originality so important here?
Make them feel something. That's all you have to do. Make it good, and make them feel something. |
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William
Liger
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 1055
Location: ON, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: |
#39538 |
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| quade wrote: | Your plot twist is the least important thing in your story.
Read that again.
Ultimately what people want is your emotional story. They don't care that the big boat sinks. Oh, when they saw the commercial and the title, Titanic, they thought they did, but that's just the box their chocolate comes in.
What they desperately want is to feel something by proxy. They want to feel what Rose and Jack felt; even if it's a love lost. They want the emotion of the story, not simply the plot.
The classic example of this is;
The Queen died, then the King died.
That's simply a chronology of events. Who cares? People die every day.
The Queen died and then the King died of a broken heart.
Well, there ya go.
NOBODY CARES IF YOUR PLOT IS A RIP OFF AS LONG AS YOU MAKE THEM FEEL SOMETHING.
Do you think anybody cares The Lion King is Hamlet? No. |
This is an excellent post quade.
The only challenge i might make is to suggest that these plot twists are in part what create the emotion.
I've watched actor after actor bring tears to a performance that fell flat.
Why? The dramatic circumstances did not warrant enough emotional investment on my part.
Teary-eyed actors help, but good writing creates those emotions. I would suggest that plot twists that create emotional tension are what everyone is best to strive for.
It's hard to come up with them, that's my problem. lol
It's easy to come up with cool scenes, but to build them up into sufficient emotional tension is no small task.
I end up having to discard most of them as duds. lol |
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Speedo
Cougar
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 51
Location: Wenatchee WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject: |
#39566 |
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I go to what Blake said over and over... "give 'em the same thing only different." I've though about this and decided not to worry too much about originality, but concentrate on the "only different" side of the equation.
Being totally original causes its own problems... People don't recognize that which they do not know or understand. The education of the story is way too long and won't get past many reader or futhur up the food chain.
My goal is to sell the story. |
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Mike Rinaldi
Battle Cat
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 3887
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:50 pm Post subject: |
#39571 |
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| Speedo wrote: | "give 'em the same thing only different." I've though about this and decided not to worry too much about originality, but concentrate on the "only different" side of the equation.
Being totally original causes its own problems... People don't recognize that which they do not know or understand. |
Even if an extremely original story gets you in the studio door, this is what the development execs will tell you after you get there.
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The Slusho's gone? Why is all the Slusho gone?
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writingmama
Huggy Cat
Joined: 13 Aug 2008
Posts: 2496
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:01 am Post subject: |
#39581 |
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Wow, this is a great thread with some wise advice for all of us Cats!
Thanks Mike, SavetheFish, Paul, Speedo, Rachel and William!
As usual, you Cats rock!
Hugs
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Crusader Cat
Bengal Tiger
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 247
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
#39585 |
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| I do this a lot too, I call it "Subconscious Plagiarism". I discovered a way to help prevent myself from inadvertently using another persons idea. If I come up with something in only a few seconds or minuets, then I know I picked it up somewhere else. Good original ideas take time and a lot of hard work, if your idea didn't come to be through either of those, chances are it isn't your idea.
_________________
"Just because it's a romance doesn't mean it can't have a decapitation or two" - Robert Englund
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