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Joseph
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Location: London, England
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: Throwback (Institutionalized) |
 #38478 |
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Although I've already posted comments on several threads, I haven't yet introduced myself. I'm Joe King. I've been familiarizing myself with Blake Snyder's work for the past 2 years, during which I have been working on my own screenplay, which may evolve into a novel instead.
I took Snyder at his word and decided to let the idea grow rather than throw myself into the screenplay, as I had started to do. He came along just at the right moment and stopped me from writing another word. The truth is, I have too often started writing a story only to get stuck just a tenth of the way. So I know from experience that being too eager to start writing doesn't help the writing process. So far putting it off has worked a treat. Although I have been working on my story idea for over a year and a half now, I am amazed at how much it has developed, organically, without any real interference from me.
Story ideas used to come and go. I was afraid this one wouldn't last, but it has proved me wrong. It is more determined to be told than I am to want to tell it. I think I must have some kind of masochistic pleasure from prolonging the delay. If only that were true. The fact is, I have difficulty concentrating, and I seem to have certain prerequisites to writing that I don't currently have. So it's a real struggle. At the same time, I do sometimes get bored with it, but that's because I fail to move it along at a speed that will keep my interest. And I have a terrible habit of revising and editing as I write.
Writing for me is actually an embarrassing ordeal. But I keep at it because it's all I have.
This is the logline to my screenplay:
An estranged anthropologist struggles to adapt to a primitive Earth and its customs after awakening from cryo to find herself on a mission she remembers nothing about.
Imagine yourself as the studio executive. You don't know anything about my screenplay. You don't care to know anything about it at this stage. All you want to hear is my logline: if it's interesting. Does it make you want to know more? Or does it leave you feeling cold?
I look forward to your comments.
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quade
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
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Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Throwback (Institutionalized) |
#38479 |
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| Joseph wrote: | An estranged anthropologist struggles to adapt to a primitive Earth and its customs after awakening from cryo to find herself on a mission she remembers nothing about.
Or does it leave you feeling cold? |
Was that intentional?!?
Anyway, I'm not thrilled with it. The reason I'm not thrilled with it is even though it has two problems heaped on the protagonist, it doesn't tell me anything about what she's going to attempt to do or who is stopping her from doing it.
I'm not even certain I need her second problem in the story. Seems like a violation of the double mumbo jumbo rule.
Isn't just dealing with a world she wasn't expecting to find enough?
I mean think of it.
Somebody tells you to go into cryo so you can perform some mission. When you wake up, things aren't the way you expected to find them.
Planet of the Apes
Would it add anything if Charlton Heston also couldn't remember what he was supposed to do? Isn't it actually better that he knows how things are supposed to be, but they aren't?
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: |
#38486 |
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| hello
Last edited by Joseph on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fletch137
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Joined: 09 Apr 2009
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Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
#38488 |
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| Joseph wrote: | | ...from which they’ve been separated through no fault of their own. |
Always make it a fault of their own.
I'm almost hooked, but I'm really unclear on the premise. See, I really like the idea of the future of humanity depending on an expert in the past who can't actually remember her past. That's cool, but I've a lot of questions.
Did they go back in time or are they on another planet or is this post-apocalipstick Earth?
Is the only thing she's forgetting about her mission that she needs to make some baby?
Can you give me some examples of what you have planned for Fun & Games?
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quade
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1763
Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
#38493 |
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| Now that I know quite a bit more about your story, I'll have to think over a few things. In the meantime, I don't think your log line matches the story as described in your second post. It's not just it doesn't grab me, I don't think it reflects what the story is.
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
#38494 |
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It’s post-apocalyptic Earth. It’s set about a hundred years from now, when science has learned enough about cryogenics to freeze humans and successfully reverse the process. But it has never been accepted by society and remains prohibited. The world at this time is at war – a great and terrible war that ravages the Earth. Amidst the continuing devastation, a comet hits the Earth and wipes out humanity.
Prior to this event, the governments of the world come together to agree upon a joint mission to save the human race from extinction. They have known for decades that a catastrophe is imminent and have worked towards destroying or deflecting the comet, but their efforts have been continuously unsuccessful. And with the world about to descend into madness, they decide to concentrate their efforts on an alternative rescue mission while the global economy will still allow it. No information is ever released to the public, except false information regarding their space programs.
The cryopreservation of humans is just one alternative suggested to help save the human race.
The protagonist initially remembers nothing about herself or the mission. It is only as the story progresses that her memory comes back.
The following is what happens during Fun & Games:
I’m still working through the treatment for this, and feel at this moment that some of it may change, particularly the part where the men are thrown into a caged pit, as I feel this has made them redundant and, therefore, one dimensional.
Last edited by Joseph on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
#38495 |
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Quade
I don't disagree with you on that. It's what's been bothering me for some time now, which is why I decided to post the logline on this site. I can't think of what I'm doing wrong. Every logline I write feels like something is missing from it. I've been racking my brains trying to get it right. It might just be a case of failing to see the trees for the forest. But saying that, I still don't see how it helps me.
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RobbRoss
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Joined: 04 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
#38496 |
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Hey, Joseph.
Work at nailing the logline before thinking of the BS2 or treatment. And be prepared for just-about anything to change.
I'll ditto Quade about the amnesia. It's not Double Mumbo Jumbo (since Blake applies that to OOTB), but the similar and overlooked principle of Black Vet. Re-read pages 130-132 in Blake's first book. Regardless of the amnesia's benefits to the story, it's your job to make the story work with just one plot device or 'What if?' scenario.
"Amidst the continuing devastation, a comet hits the Earth and wipes out humanity."
This sounds like another case of Black Vet. Either war wipes out humanity or the comet, no need for two forms of devestation.
"The cryopreservation of humans is just one alternative suggested "
But it's the one the story focuses on, right? Is this really the smartest way to
preserve people in the face of a comet? Who do they expect will un-freeze the
bodies? How many could they freeze? Why didn't they build bomb shelters?
"But it has never been accepted by society and remains prohibited"
Why not? It exists today.
If the story is on Earth, why is the fleet seemingly coming from somewhere else?
If there's a tribe on Earth, aren't they human? If yes, then why is the propogating still necessary? If no, how did they get there?
How many humans are left that we should feel extinction is a real threat/stakes?
The plot point of the other women dying before the mission even starts is weak. Consider that they live and die over the course of the first half of Act II.
If the heart of the story is this woman being the last female human, then focus on it and cut everything else. There's a lot going on in your summaries and explanations and not enough sense of what the point of it all is. Black Vet. Pick one thing and focus on it.
Planet Of The Apes was about one thing. Prometheus was clear in being about one thing...though veered towards the end and had other issues. What is your one thing?
The logline only goes to the start of Act II so work on a new version that captures the one thing and conflict. A new logline can be something like:
In the future when Earth..., the last woman on the mission to re-populate the planet struggles to....
or
In the future when Earth..., the last female survivor....
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: |
#38501 |
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Robb
I don’t see how you can write the logline with an undeveloped idea. Surely you must know what the main elements are before you can even attempt to write a logline. Unless you’re prepared to beat it out as a way of developing the idea, it’ll all remain up in the air. For me, it has been a process of going back and forth between the beat sheet and the logline. While the logline has been tricky and seems to continually defy me, the beat sheet (and the board) has been rearranged several times as the story developed. As a result I have felt the need to write a full treatment to better grasp the plot and the action of the story, and this has allowed it to develop even more and for me to learn new things about it.
I don’t want to develop a screenplay from a logline. I want to develop a logline from a screenplay. If I was to compose the logline first, the screenplay that will follow will almost certainly change as I write it and have no relation to the logline. In any case, the story is so well developed, it’s too late to compose the logline first, unless I am to throw everything out of the window, which I’m not prepared to do. I have more faith in the story than I have in the process of writing a logline.
I have approached this with an open mind, and have allowed for changes to occur from the title to the characters to the plot. It is still in the process of developing, and that means changing, growing and evolving. I trust it enough to allow it its own identity and independence.
| Quote: | | This sounds like another case of Black Vet. Either war wipes out humanity or the comet, no need for two forms of devastation. |
I do agree, it does sound like too much. But this is background. The story begins much later than this event. Having said that, the war is the cause of the fleet splitting up, because the governments have their own agenda, despite agreeing to a joint mission. If I am to exclude it from the story, it would impact the plot hugely. The fleet would not be split, and the protagonist and her crewmates would have no need to search for it. And that’s just a minor part of what transpires as a result of the war. If, instead, I am to exclude the comet, the human race would not likely be at risk from extinction, because I don’t think a world war can achieve that.
The original idea of the story arose from the question: How would the human race survive an impact like that which destroyed the dinosaurs?
Most likely we wouldn’t. But we would give it our best shot. The story is about that best shot, with all the complications and machinations of human error and interference thrown in because that’s what we’re like in real life. Nothing is ever straight forward.
Originally the idea of a comet hitting the Earth while the world is at war was simply to illustrate people’s obsession with themselves and their lives while more important things were going on around them. Of course, a world war is a seriously important event that even the most self-obsessed individual is unlikely to overlook. But it isn’t as important as an extinction level event. And yet still the governments bicker over their pathetic politics.
| Quote: | | Is this really the smartest way to preserve people in the face of a comet? Who do they expect will un-freeze the bodies? How many could they freeze? Why didn't they build bomb shelters? |
Bomb shelters! What, like an air-raid shelter?
I thought about this long and hard because it is the answer I seek to my question: How would the human race survive an impact like that which destroyed the dinosaurs?
I believe the Earth will be so devastated by such an impact that nothing on Earth above a certain size will survive, not even humans hiding in mountains. So I figure the only way humans could survive is if they're not on Earth but in space. In the story the cryopreservation of humans is the only real option they have in order to wait out Earth’s recovery.
| Quote: | | Why not? It exists today. |
Cryopreservation exists today, but not the successful cryopreservation of humans. And even today, religious eyebrows are raised over this process. Religion and science have always been at each other’s throats. It is no different in the future. Political religious intervention is what causes the progression of the cryopreservation of humans to be prohibited, forcing it out of the public eye, while maintaining an interest in its development. By the time of the impact, it has been proved to be successful, but not completely mastered. I don't want to make it easy for them.
| Quote: | | If there's a tribe on Earth, aren't they human? If yes, then why is the propogating still necessary? If no, how did they get there? |
Yes, the tribespeople are human. But no one expected there to be any survivors.
| Quote: | | The plot point of the other women dying before the mission even starts is weak. Consider that they live and die over the course of the first half of Act II. |
Absolutely not! The three crew members that die in the beginning create conflict amongst the crew that take it through to the third act. If there is conflict, I don’t see how this is a weak start. But to save their deaths for later in the story would undermine the theme and the protagonist’s decision-making.
| Quote: | | If the heart of the story is this woman being the last female human, then focus on it and cut everything else. There's a lot going on in your summaries and explanations and not enough sense of what the point of it all is. |
The protagonist is not the last human female. There are three others with her, plus there is the tribe, and whoever there might be among the fleet. The point of it all is survival: the survival of the human race, the survival of the crew on a primitive Earth and at the hands of the tribe, the survival of the protagonist as a woman determined not to be domineered by ancestral customs just because the world has gone to the dogs.
| Quote: | | The logline only goes to the start of Act II so work on a new version that captures the one thing and conflict. |
I agree. It needs working on. I haven’t settled on anything yet, not even the complete version of the story.
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RobbRoss
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Joined: 04 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
#38503 |
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Blake stresses the point that a logline must come first. The log is the most concise expression of the idea. It has the building blocks of the idea so the BS2 will develop on a foundation. Once the BS2 is solid, then the script will develop on that foundation.
The trouble you're having is working on things out of order. You cannot complete a BS2 or treatment without a good logline. It's like building a house without a foundation. It cannot work.
The deeper you go into the BS2 or treatment without having a logline, the harder it will be for you to let go of things and change others. That's what I hear now in your replies, mostly justifications for what you have so far.
Re-read the logline section of his first book and complete the exercises. Obviously one doesn't have the entire story in mind when the log is crafted, the point is to focus on the key parts and build from there. You have the key parts, they're just buried under many non-key elements.
The following may also help since you have so many things to juggle. In Blake's third book, there are two templates to help the logline and story, the first is the regular and the second is enhanced.
1) On the verge of a Stasis = Death moment, a flawed protagonist Breaks Into Two; but when the Midpoint happens, he/she must learn the Theme Stated before All Is Lost.
2) On the verge of a Stasis = Death moment, a flawed protagonist has a Catalyst and Breaks Into Two with the B Story; but when the Midpoint happens, he/she must learn the Theme Stated before All Is Lost, to defeat (or stop) the flawed antagonist (from getting away with his/her plan).
You sound like a nice guy and I wish you well, but I won't continue a back-and-forth discussion until you follow this very basic step and help yourself first.
Good luck!
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
#38504 |
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Thanks for the nice guy comment. It's much appreciated. And I respect your standing firm by what you understand. I think ideas, however, should be challenged. By posting on this site, I expect to be challenged. And if I don't agree with what others say, I would want to challenge their ideas too. I think the trick is to have an open mind and to be willing to understand. But it's a two way thing, and you can't always be sure that what you know is true unless you have the experience behind it.
I'm definitely going to be looking at my logline more closely. You hit it on the head when you said it doesn't go beyond break into two. I'm also familiar with the logline templates.
This is what I did with one of them recently:
On the verge of being paired with a new mission partner, an estranged anthropologist struggles to adapt to a primitive Earth; but when a tribal chieftain threatens to kill the male members of the crew, she must learn that people have a duty to others, not just to themselves or further risk jeopardising the mission.
So it's back to the drawing board, I guess.
Thanks for your encouragement.
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
#38505 |
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I just wrote this. Can I have your opinion on it.
In the future, after a catastrophic event brings humans to near extinction, an estranged anthropologist struggles to adapt to the primitive customs of a cannibalistic tribe.
I like it, and it definitely sounds a lot better, and more exciting, thrilling even, but I'm not happy about the absence of the protagonist's gender.
The irony, however, is heavy, and that pleases me.
Actually, I'm really pleased with the feedback I've received. It has made me think a lot about the story, and finally in writing the above logline, I've learned something new about it: that the tribe are cannibals, and that when one of the crew is killed for trying to escape in Fun & Games, his carcass is eaten during the evening repast, in which the protagonist unwittingly joins.
This is now new territory, a change in the screenplay I only briefly anticipated. I'm very excited!
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quade
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1763
Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
#38506 |
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| Joseph wrote: | | In the future, after a catastrophic event brings humans to near extinction, an estranged anthropologist struggles to adapt to the primitive customs of a cannibalistic tribe. |
"In the future" is unnecessary since, "after a catastrophic event brings humans to near extinction" pretty well implies that. We know it's not in the past or present.
"An estranged anthropologist" tells me very little. Estranged from whom? Actually, I don't care. "Anthropologist" is an ironically inhuman term.
I know a large portion of your story is already written in your mind, but I can't help thinking of the basic flaws in the science of your set-up. I keep thinking of how, if I was trying to create a human seed bank to ensure the survival of the species, while I probably would keep it a secret from the masses, I almost certainly wouldn't make it a small group who could be easily whittled down to just a handful of survivors.
I know in order to have properly genetically viable human seed bank, I'm going to have to have a population of over 100. I also know there is going to be a certain failure rate of whatever process I use to cryogenically store the population. I also know there is no way for me to guarantee key persons aren't in that failure group so I need to create quite a bit of redundancy. For instance, if I know I need a doctor in the future, I probably need to have at least three in cryo. So, what I'm really thinking here is my group needs to probably number not in the dozens, but in the thousands.
As much as I hated Emmerich's 2012, he got that one thing right; try to save thousands of people.
I'm also thinking along with the 1000 or more people I'd cryo, I'd include -millions- more as frozen embryos. That way, once the basic population gets going again, I'd have a much wider source of genetic material from which to draw.
I realize this isn't necessarily moving YOUR story forward much, but I think I need to buy into a bigger and more likely scenario before I can buy into what happens in Act 2. I'm assuming Act 1 is ALL about the set up and the break into 2 is the lid of the cryo chamber being lowered on your protagonist. At least, that's the way I'd write it.
Now, here's the difficult part and does get into Act 2.
If I'm going to go to all this trouble, there's no way I don't include basic hunting weapons. It just makes sense that the survivors of the human extinction (asteroid strike, global warming, nuclear war, whatever) are going to need to protect themselves from wild animals as well as going to need to re-domesticate in order to set-up the agriculture required to not just survive as a species, but also restart civilization. Right outside the door to the cyro storage facility is going to be a 100% wild world. Forget any humans who became feral as a result of the catastrophe, the cyro-stored humans need to defend themselves from lions, tigers and bears.
So what I'm having a difficult time understanding is how the technologically advanced survivors don't just whip the asses of the neo-neaderthal cannibalistic tribe.
I LOVE the idea of the technologically advanced people fighting the cannibals, I just don't see how we get there logically and whittle away the techies down to a handful at the mercy of them.
It worked in The Planet of the Apes, because on their mission, there was no need to prepare for what changes they might find in the future. The assumption was the world would be approximately like they left it. In this, I'm fairly certain they'd have to be prepared for just about anything to happen because that is the stated mission goal.
I know you don't want to make your protag "the last woman on Earth," but you need to give her an equivalent importance otherwise it doesn't make sense to me why it's HER story.
I still don't see why it's important for her to be an amnesiac. I don't see the purpose in that.
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Joseph
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
#38508 |
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I really don’t think you can explain every element in a logline, or even that you’re supposed to. A logline is supposed to raise questions like “Why is the protagonist estranged?” I think you can ask similar questions with most loglines. Does that mean they’re not doing what it says on the tin?
Normally when we sleep for 6-8 hours every night, we don’t always remember everything that was said and done the day before. Our memories lapse when we sleep – some more than others. If we can suffer temporary memory loss during short periods of sleep, it is almost certain that the loss of memory will be far greater during longer periods of sleep. That is why she is an amnesiac, as are the rest of the crew. And with a loss of memory comes estrangement, emotional detachment, a failure to connect with others and one’s environment.
It’s not that it’s important for her or the crew to be this way. It’s just the logical outcome of such a long period of sleep, in this case, for two thousand years. I can’t exclude that for this reason. Everything that happens is a consequence of what occurs in the beginning. The war has consequences. The comet’s impact has consequences. Being cryopreserved has consequences. The three deaths have consequences. And putting off pairing with a new mission partner has consequences. I don’t want to interfere with the “natural” evolution of this story. Although it may seem like a lot is going on, none of this overwhelms the main story.
Why do you say “anthropologist” is an ironically inhuman term? Admittedly, what the protagonist ends up as may or may not change. But at the moment I feel an anthropologist is better suited to move the story forward and express the theme.
| Quote: | | “I know a large portion of your story is already written in your mind, but I can't help thinking of the basic flaws in the science of your set-up. I keep thinking of how, if I was trying to create a human seed bank to ensure the survival of the species, while I probably would keep it a secret, I almost certainly wouldn't make it a small group who could be easily whittled down to just a handful of survivors. “ |
Actually, the entire story is written down on paper. It’s no longer just in my mind.
The science involved in my story scares me tremendously. But I have thought carefully about how many people would be required to kick-start the human race. And it isn’t a small group. It’s an entire fleet; and in addition to that fleet, as you have pointed out, thousands of frozen embryos.
Quite honestly, this is one area where I may choose to apply my artistic license because the greater portion of the fleet isn’t in the story. So I don’t have to worry too much about the dynamics of the required number of humans. The story is about a faction of the fleet and the tribe they come upon. However, I am interested in knowing what kind of people may be selected for an end of the world crisis. I suspect a lot of scientists would not be needed, as they wouldn’t be deemed practical. For example, what is the point of selecting a physicist?
| Quote: | | “As much as I hated Emmerich's 2012, he got that one thing right. You try to save thousands of people in a big assed "boat.” |
What if you can’t save thousands of people? What if that isn’t feasible, say for economic reasons? What if you can only save hundreds?
| Quote: | | “I'm assuming Act 1 is ALL about the set up and the break into 2 is the lid of the cryo chamber being lowered on your protagonist.” |
No. Break into 2 is when the crew are captured by the tribe. The lid of the cryo chamber is lowered over the protagonist within the first ten minutes.
| Quote: | | “If I'm going to go to all this trouble, there's no way I don't include basic hunting weapons. It just makes sense that the survivors of the human extinction (asteroid strike, global warming, nuclear war, whatever) are going to need to protect themselves from wild animals as well as going to need to re-domesticate in order to set-up the agriculture required to not just survive as a species, but also restart civilization. Right outside the door to the cyro storage facility is going to be a 100% wild world. Forget any humans who became feral as a result of the catastrophe, the cyro-stored humans need to defend themselves from lions, tigers and bears.” |
What occurs in the beginning is an impact equivalent to what destroyed the dinosaurs. There aren’t going to be any wild animals on the surface of the planet. There aren’t going to be any humans. The Earth is itself will be in total darkness for more than 400 years.
| Quote: | | “So what I'm having a difficult time understanding is how the technologically advanced survivors don't just whip the asses of the neo-neaderthal cannibalistic tribe.” |
They’re caught with their pants down while having a swim, just like Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes.
| Quote: | | “I know you don't want to make your protag "the last woman on Earth," but you need to give her an equivalent importance otherwise it doesn't make sense to me why it's HER story.” |
Originally the protagonist was a man. Personally I’m not too hot on the idea of conveying my integrity through a woman, for the simple reason that I’m a man. My natural inclination was to have a male protagonist. But I quickly realized that, given the plot and the subplot, a female protagonist would allow the story to have a more interesting dynamic. If the protagonist was a man, the story wouldn’t work as well. It may be interesting to see men fighting over a woman, but it’s more interesting to see a woman refuse to give herself to them. The dynamics of the story is more challenging for a woman than it is for a man. That’s why it’s her story. The protagonist is the only character with the greatest dramatic need.
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quade
Liger
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1763
Location: South of the 605
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
#38510 |
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I fear what you may have done though is written the thing backwards.
Help me here, what is it you're actually trying to say with this story? You've said the theme is "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one."
However, so far what you've told us doesn't fit that too well.
For instance, you've said this isn't the only group, just one of many and that originally you wrote the protagonist as a man rather than a woman.
What is the ultimate sacrifice this one person is going to have to give up to benefit the many? Just her virginity? Seems to me that doesn't matter at all if there is a fleet of others just like her.
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